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| Dan |
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Hi all...thought I'd throw up this mini-review...
I have used an Exposure 2010s2 integrated and Simaudio MOON CD.5 for about a year. I'm now trying out a Naim Nait 5i (pre-italic) and Naim CD5X, which I obtained use from a local dealer. Speakers are PMC TB2i, while the cables are Naim DIN between the two Naim pieces and LFD speaker cable. Still not sure how much I dig the Naim sound, but it's been eye opening so far.
My first impression of the Naim combo, within the first hour of listening, wasn't quite what I expected. It sounded relatively smooth and warm, even dark. Not sure why I expected something a bit more aggressive. Probably preconceived notions. I get now what people mean when they refer to a black background. Music really seemed to come out of nowhere. However, it was too early to know whether I was happy or not.
After about an hour the system seemed to come alive. Naim is known for getting toes to tap, and I definitely found myself doing this - in fact, it was hard not to! The Naim wall of sound was evident as well. The image is just in front of the speakers, a bit more forward than with the Exposure/Sim combo, and it was very solid.
Soundstaging is often seen as not what Naim does best, and that may be, but I found it to actually be quite strong. Certainly the left to right soundstage was nice and clear, with each instrument occupying what felt like a clearly defined 3D space within the stage. I expect the illusion of depth to be less prominent. I guess time will tell on that.
Probably the most impressive aspect of the sound is it's transparency - I kind of stopped noticing my speakers. Singers sounded like they were present in the room, with a very natural tonality. The Exposure/Sim combo seems to have just a touch of digital-like glare to the sound that is pleasing in some cases in that it seems to enhance clarity and provide a nice bite to the sound, but when you hear the human voice you realize it takes away from the presence that should have, and the illusion that someone is right there in front of you.
And now I know what Art means when he talks about the dialogue between musicians. Naim really brings this to the fore. Changes in the notes played, how a note is held or released, vocal inflections, etc. take center stage. Each instrument occupies it's own space, sounding almost lifelike, and with these two points taken care of you can clearly hear how one part relates to another. I found myself listening to music differently than I have in the past...more aware of what each musician was doing.
The downside? Explosive dynamics. This is usually seen as a plus but frankly I felt it overdone in this case. And I think the sound is a bit too forward for my liking. I am really looking forward to trying the Naim combo with my Castle Avon speakers. The Avon is a fun speaker to listen to, lots of quickness and snap to the sound. Compared to the TB2i the dynamics are more subdued and the speaker is a little less forward. This might help alleviate the issues I heard with the Naim/PMC system. However, I find the Avon lacks some midrange warmth that the PMC seems to have, which givies nice weight to piano, guitar, vocals, etc., and what I feel is greater accuracy in that region. There is always a tradeoff I suppose. The Avon goes in next weekend, after I've spent a little more time with the Naim/PMC combo. And that is ultimately why I said earlier that I wasn't sure yet about Naim. My impressions read as very positive I'm sure, but I'm still getting used to the very different presentation than what I am used to.
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| N1ck |
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Hey Dan, I too found the Naim sound to be dark and very involving. Naim is very musical to my ears. That said, if matched up to a forward speaker you could have issues. Not that I believe simply matching warm to forward is a good way of properly matching speakers to an amp, I found the Naim was definitely best when matched with a more laid back speaker. The 5i was Superb with the Totem Sttafs ( very laid back and musical speaker ). Not saying the PMC is not a musical speaker, but I can't personally see them being a key match for Naim. They are a great speaker though non the less.
Its not that Naim is forward to me, its that there is so much dynamic attack to the music that pairing it with a speaker that is not so explosive is key IMO. Also, if you havn't tried Naim with DIN cables yet, you must. Maybe you are, and I missed that. Either way, I really like the 5i. Definitely one of the best in its price range IMO. If I ever feel the need to change Amps at any time in the future, the Naim Nait XS is on my very very short list.
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| dmitchell |
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Still have to hear me some Naim...
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| N1ck |
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Yes Dave, yes you do. lol.
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| Dan |
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Hey Nick,
Yup, I'm using a DIN cable. I definitely wanted to make sure that setup was taken care of as I know Naim is a little particular about that.
I don't think PMC is a bad match - listening to the system is a treat. Timing, timbre, and overall balance seem to be very right. But yes, there are probably more ideal matches. I think the Avon is very likely to be one of those, as it is a little more laid back and subtle in the portrayal of dynamics, but it still excels at pace, timing, and clarity. Don't confuse the Avon with the new Castle line. It was made by the old company (mine is likely 12 or so years old) and it's one of my favorite audio purchases so far.
But, you never know. Maybe I will get used to the presentation and start to believe that the dynamics portrayed wit the Naim/PMC system are correct. I think I'll stick with this combination for a few more weeks, and delay the move to the Castle, just to give it more time for the sound to sink in.
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| dmitchell |
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I've seen the Avons pop up on CAM every now and then. Didn't realize they were such a gem!
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| dmitchell |
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Have you ever heard the Inversions?
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648997120-castle_inversion_50_picture_included/
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| Dan |
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That's where I bought the Avons. I have kicked around the thought of buying those Inversions too. I probably will if they are still unsold in a few months. Used Castle goes pretty cheaply, to me they represent great value, though there were probably some duds in their lineup over the years as well. The Avon Inversions are well reviewed.
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| Dan |
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Oops, I mean the Avon AND Inversions are both well reviewed, Tough to type on my Android phone.
That said, I don't think they are better than the TB2i. In most things the PMC tops the Castle. However, on the used market you'd also pay 3x the money to get a pair, and they are also a newer design.
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| N1ck |
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PMC make awesome speakers. I have heard them a few times and both time I came away stunned.
Those Castle's look neat.
Have you tried the Sim Audio CDP with the Naim amp DAN, just using interconnects? I find the Naim CDP to be more "hot under the collar" than the 5i amp. Also which amp do you have? Is it the 5i or the 5i-2?
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| Dan |
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Hey Nick, I've got the 5i (pre-italic). Made in 2006. I have not tried the Sim and Naim together, however that might be something to do. I tried the CD5X with the Exposure and didn't like it very much. A lot of the bottom end seemed to be missing. I'll give the Sim and 5i a shot in the coming weeks.
I will probably get the Castles back in there soon as well, as listening last night I realized that the sound is too dark for my tastes. Songs that do not have a lot of low end to begin with sound great, however for songs that do have a lot of low end, this part of the frequency range seems exaggerated. So next weekend I'll do the speaker switch.
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| N1ck |
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Hey Dan, I too had the first 5i version which mine was built in 2004. I too found the low frequencies to be a little exaggerated at times. To me the bottom end sounded a wee bit *Bloated*. The bottom end control on the 840A V2 was very apparent when it went it, as well as Tonal accuracy. Or what I assume to be. Those would be my only two complaints about the 5i, and it took amp swapping to figure it out. Overall though the presentation was quit nice in my setup. I would love to hear how the Sim Audio matches with the 5i Amp. As well as the speaker combination switch. Look forward to your findings.
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| JanVigne |
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"I too found the low frequencies to be a little exaggerated at times. To me the bottom end sounded a wee bit *Bloated*."
Naim solves this problem by having you beef up the power supply through supplemental purchases. Their opinion; if you're not satisfied with the Naim house sound, don't get rid of your Naim ... buy more Naim!
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| dmitchell |
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Ha. That's awesome.
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| JanVigne |
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Decades ago Linn and Naim were cooperative with each other and many Linn dealers carried Naim on the basis of that loose partnership. Any communal relationship between the two companies has long since disappeared but their house sounds are not too distant from each other. Any Linn speaker should perform well with Naim electronics.
Naim has always been somewhat of the oddball in British audio gear. They aim for things the Luddites dismiss as pure rubbish - most especially PRaT - yet are closer in someways to the Flat Earth crowd than any other of audio's high end companies. From the get go, however, Naim and Linn have displayed a style of reproduction which is meant to get your innards awake and your toes, head, fingers, elbows and knees bobbbing up and down and side to side. Naim also comes from a company whose traditions hold classical music up as the only real reason to own an audio system. It's fairly understandable then they are convinced this hyper-realism most American gear displays as "imaging" isn't a Naim strong suite. Dynamic contrasts indeed! This is what makes the Naim gear swing and many listeners feel a portion of that is lost as the power supply is improved. As with anything in audio, it's a trade off. Naim has slowly made itself more accessible to the younger buyer who doesn't judge audio gear with symphonic compositions. They and many other British companies aimed for the US market when England was suffering through one of their every three year recessions back in the mid to late '80's. Their business has survived the many changes in audio since their inception and, somewhat like the Luddites, I always got the impression Naim would be perfectly happy if people just went away and left them alone. Just buy their gear, don't ask questions and don't criticize should be Naim's motto IMO.
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| Dan |
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Yet, the Naim forums are pretty open to criticism of the Naim sound and I have found people are generally very helpful and even open to other brands in place of Naim. I haven't joined that forum, only browsed it on occasion. To me the Naim community has a certain 'rolls off the back' attitude. Like they don't really care about criticism of Naim, they know how special it is and if someone doesn't "get it" there are many others who do. No need to convince everyone. Maybe Naim (the company) is a little different.
As for buying more and more Naim, as Nuck says, it's Naim's death by a thousand cuts. Luckily though, even low end Naim sounds so good on it's own, without extra power supplies and all of that. I think one could be very happy with just a Nait 5i and CD5i.
It's so good that I'm actually selling my Exposure amp. I think it's a great amp and I've put many hours on it, but the Naim system has really opened my eyes. Music breathes in a way that it doesn't with the Exposure. The Exposure presents a very flat soundstage. Some might prefer it, I like it too but I like the more 3D presentation of Naim even more. And I'm kind of surprised it worked out this way, as many people suggest that Naim has a very flat presentation with little imaging. I actually thought the flat presentation that I had was everything to do with my speakers and/or room, but I guess not.
That's not really where it ends though. I bought the Naim gear last year with the intent to become familiar with the Naim sound, but I also wanted to explore active speakers afterwards, so over the winter I picked up another pair of lightly used Quad 12L actives.
I need an amp with pre-outs to hook up the Quads, and the Naim doesn't have this feature. I'm going to pick up a Rotel RA-1520 with the funds I get for the Exposure. The RA-1520 has some very encouraging reviews that even suggest it has some of Naim's qualities. That's ultimately why I'm going for the Rotel over other amps. That, and the price is right.
For now I will continue to test out the Naim gear as planned, but once I get the Rotel I will try it with the CD5X and the Sim player. Hopefully much of the Naim presentation will be evident with my passive speakers. Then I'll have to try the actives and decide which direction to go from there. I'm kind of hoping now that the CD5X and RA-1520 make up the front of my system going forward, whatever speakers I end up keeping. I have some doubts that the CD5X will sound quite as good with a non-Naim amp though. Time will tell.
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| JanVigne |
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Dan, I don't normally recommend gear but here's something I heard at the local Lone Star Audio Fest last weekend; http://oddwattaudio.com/
It isn't Naim - but then, nothing other than Naim is Naim - but it was an impressive selection of music coming from some very inexpensive gear. I spent more time in their room than any other at the show; http://lonestaraudiofest.com/
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| Dan |
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I'm not sure I have speakers efficient enough for those amps Jan, however the pre-amp would work with the Quads. No remote obviously though, which would be tough to live with.
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| N1ck |
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I can definitely see anybody, including myself living with the 5i/cdp combo you have for a long while. Dan, if the Naim sound is catching your ear with the 5i, why not sell all extra CD Players and speakers you have and pick up a used Naim Nait XS. I had one for about 25 days here and if I had the extra cash to throw at an amp at the time I would of purchased it and lived happily ever after. Although surprisingly, I am ridiculously happy with the 840a V2( I actually preferred it to the Nait 5i on most material but not all), and I could see myself living a long time with it, but if I were to ever get the upgrade bug ever again..the XS is it,and I would be out until it breaks of old age. DOOO IT DANNNN!! COME ONNN!!. lol I love spending your money. :oD
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| Dan |
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Well, I don't want to sell everything just yet. I'd like to cut down the number of items I have in the coming months for sure, eventually owning just one amp and one CD player (and maybe two sets of speakers). I just don't want to make any rash decisions. I have the Quad 12L that I'd like to break in over the summer and fall and so getting an integrated with a pre-out is what I'm looking for. Maybe in the winter I'm thinking I may try a tube amp with my Castles (which are quite easy to drive). You know, I just want to hear things that are outside of what I've been exposed to so far.
I didn't realize the XS has an RCA pre-out, but it turns out that it does. Hmmm. Maybe. But I'm curious about the Rotel now, LOL! Besides, finding a Naim amp in the used market isn't that difficult. If the Rotel falls flat I've always got that option. I think I've satisfied myself that I really dig the Naim sound, and if none of the other things are as interesting to me I would definitely not hesitate to pick up an XS.
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